Title:
It’s Not the Ramp. It’s the Culture.
Subtitle:
Why we’ve been approaching inclusion wrong and what to do instead
Transcript:
Alycia Anderson: Welcome to Pushing Forward with Alycia, a podcast that gives disability a voice. Each week we will explore topics like confidence, ambition, resilience, and finding success against all odds. We are creating a collective community that believes that all things are possible for all people. Open hearts, clear paths.
Let’s go.
Welcome back to Pushing Forward with Alycia. We’ve got another great week. Today, we’re gonna talk about a group of kids that we don’t often talk about much in disability and in the inclusion conversation. They’re called the glass children, siblings of disabled kids who grow up living fiercely, advocating naturally, and probably sometimes feeling invisible.
I know my sisters have felt that in their space from time to time. Today’s guest knows this experience from inside out. Meghan Connolly Haupt is the founder of Inclusive Saratoga, a nonprofit working to create communities where people with disabilities can fully participate. I love that. And this work did not just begin in a career move, it began through her heart and her mommy love, while she was answering questions from her older daughters. Questions like, “Why can’t my sister do the things with me that I’m doing?” So I can’t wait to hear this journey. I feel like I’m gonna have a lot of connection to your story as a mom and with your children’s.
I’m so happy you wanna share it. After a 30 year career in social impact marketing, love that. She’s now helping communities rethink inclusion from public spaces to businesses, and why accessibility benefits everyone. Meghan, it’s so great to finally meet you. Welcome to the show. Thank you for your time.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Alycia. It’s such a pleasure. I can’t wait to dive in.
Alycia Anderson: I know. We’ve been following and supporting each other on LinkedIn. I feel like it’s been years at this point, so it’s nice to finally meet you. Okay, so let’s, look back at the moment all of this started to click your journey into the work. And maybe with that question from your older daughter, or wherever you think is best to start.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah.
Alycia Anderson: But what revealed this passion of work you’re doing?
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Sometimes, you need to hear the right sentence from the right person at the right moment. It was about 18 months ago. My older daughter, who’s 13 years old, she has no disabilities. She said to me, “I just don’t understand why Tatum and I can’t ski together.” Very simple sentence. They both ski.
My younger daughter, Tatum, is multi-disabled. My older daughter, Porter, non-disabled, and they ski. They ski at different mountains with different instructors. As a parent, it’s a logistical nightmare. But it was a very simple question that hit me at that moment. I have no answer for you. I have no answer to give to my child, which, as a parent, feels horrible. And I said to myself, “I am very quick to complain when things are not done in an accessible, inclusive way. I have a responsibility to myself, to my daughters, and to everybody else in the community, frankly, to do something about that.” I’ve always seen myself as a change agent. As you said, 30 years in social impact marketing. And I thought there’s an avenue of conversation I can add to the dialogue that maybe isn’t being had as much, or as loud as it could be. So with a business consulting background already, I dove into, “How can businesses be more profitable when they are more inclusive of individuals with disabilities? So that’s the angle that I take, ’cause I do not have a disability. And I’m trying to channel the experience of being with my daughter, Tatum, into customer service and communication, so that businesses can be better serving their whole community. Cause we know that when you create programs, services, events that best serve individuals with disabilities, a hundred percent of people benefit, right? We know this. So that’s what I try to tap into with my business clients through Inclusive Saratoga. And it really just started with Porter asking that one question, “Why can’t we ski together?”
Alycia Anderson: It’s such a great question. The standard that we’ve allowed for so long is separate but equal. I don’t know if that’s the right term for that. But I know for me, in my lived experience, really in so many situations. The thing that comes top to mind right now is going to a concert and you’re only allowed to have one person with you in the accessible seats, and your entire group sits somewhere else and you don’t have the similar experience.
And that’s the same as the skiing. I think I’ve had that same skiing experience, too, where everybody goes and skis, and I go to the adaptive. It sounds like you went to separate locations. That separation has been so acceptable, not for the people who are actually living it, right?
The disabled people or their siblings, their family, their allies, their friends. But for the general population of, “Oh yeah, no, that’s how it works.” You are by yourself because you’re disabled, and the ones that are with you don’t get to experience these experiences with you, and you both need to accept that.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. What we know to be true. CDC has determined that loneliness is an epidemic in our society. Partially caused by technology, partially caused by COVID. But I believe the loneliness that I felt during COVID, I couldn’t hug my grandparents. We couldn’t go out and socialize. That’s what I observe individuals with disabilities feel like every day of their lives. COVID’s over for me. It’s not over for my daughter, Tatum. She lives in a world of separation. And Porter eloquently pointed out, that not only does Tatum a disservice, it does her a disservice. She wants to ski with her younger sister.
I have kids that they actually wanna be with each other, which is a beautiful thing. You just touched upon this, Alycia. At the core of what we’re trying to do is remove barriers to bring people together. It’s really very simple. People deserve to be together.
We deserve shared experiences. We deserve to go see that Phish concert. We deserve to go see that art exhibit. We deserve to have free access to public education. When you boil it down to just humanness, I think it just makes a lot of sense.
Alycia Anderson: I love that so much, and I love that you just mentioned Phish concert. We’ve got some Phish fans in my family, too, so that’s amazing. As a side note. Okay, so what’s the biggest barrier there? Is it societal? Is it perception? What’s the barrier?
Meghan Connolly Haupt: People don’t know what they don’t know. It’s such a trite-sounding phrase. One of my least favorite phrases in the world is, “It is what it is.” I can’t stand that. So when you say, “We don’t know. We don’t know.” It sounds trite, but that’s the reality.
Our work is predicated on the belief that people are good. People are good. They just don’t know yet. They don’t know what questions to ask. They don’t know who to reach out to. They don’t know what it feels like. They don’t know the terms. We all know, in our society, people don’t like change. People are afraid. They either do something or they don’t do something because of fear. So we try to take just a very conversational human approach to it of like, and I’ve heard you say the same thing, “We are all in this together. We are all learning together.” There is no expert of inclusion, including individuals with disabilities. There’s no end point. We’re never gonna be finished. We have to, as a society, engage on this path together with multiple different voices and allies, and see how far we can get. I think it’s cultural. It’s that deep-seated, “We just didn’t know.” But here’s the thing, once you know,you have a responsibility to respond, right? So that’s what we try to do is we illuminate the physical, and cultural, and intellectual barriers, and then provide very easily implemented solutions to the problem. Because, one of the things we really believe also, in addition to people are good, is that disability inclusivity is a very simple math equation.
Two parts. First part, empathy. You have to care. You have to care about people. That’s just the very basic piece of disability inclusion. And then the second piece of the equation is problem solving, creativity, figuring it out. So you take empathy plus creativity, and you have disability inclusion. It doesn’t necessarily cost a lot of money to make big renovations to your bathrooms and your entrance. And a lot of times, it’s just showing that you care about somebody’s experience at that concert, or at that art exhibit, or in the classroom.
Alycia Anderson: Okay, so I love that, and I love that equation. It’s beautiful. You talk about the business case. You’ve got the empathy, you are making the effort to problem solve. We both know that the business case is pretty important for the people who are gonna be saying yes to a project once they understand this.
Will you talk a little bit about that piece?
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a bunch of different numbers out there. One study revealed that individuals with disabilities, and we didn’t even say this because you and I just know this, it’s 28% of the adult population. We’re talking 70 million people. So if your business is not actively engaging the disability audience, then you’re ignoring 28% of your market, if you are a public-facing business.Those, in and of themselves, are real numbers. Then you look at the broader impact, we’re a family of four. If we’re looking for a restaurant, let’s say, to go to Mother’s Day brunch, we’re, then, a family of nine going to brunch. We’re not gonna choose that restaurant, because we know it’s not accessible. You’ve just lost the business of nine people. So the numbers get big really quickly. We try to focus on looking at the total market. But of the disability community, 70% are likely to try business if that business has shown any indication that they care about the experience of their customers with disabilities. That’s a pretty important number for businesses to understand.
Alycia Anderson: Massive number for businesses to understand. When I’m giving presentations and pitching, there’s a slide that I put up that talks about the trillions and trillions of dollars that are being left on the table when you’re not considering disability and the family friend connection circle that surrounds that cultural experience. Those are the numbers that really catch the eye of businesses for right, wrong, or indifferent. I think it’s important to really put those numbers out there to understand it.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I have two business degrees, and one of them is in intercultural international management. So it’s focus on, “How are you a community-minded business?” The word disability and the word inclusion never came up in any of my coursework.They’re not recent degrees, but they never came up.
You want people to do things ’cause it’s the right thing to do. You want people to respond out of altruism. In fact, my daughter, Porter, just last night asked me what altruism meant. But the reality is that businesses are gonna do things if it benefits them, right? That’s the language that I try to speak.
Like I said, if you are not actively engaging the disability community, then you’re ignoring a big portion of your potential market. And the other statistics, which come from Accenture, well-known research company. Businesses that embrace disability inclusion see 30% higher net revenue. I don’t know a business today that wouldn’t like 30% more revenue. Now, what does embrace mean? It’s vague, but we know what it doesn’t mean. Doesn’t mean ignoring, right? It means showing you care. And I hear businesses say a lot like, “Oh, no, we want everyone to be welcome in our establishment. We want everyone to have a good experience here.” And I’ve learned to respond with, “How do they know that?”
Just because you’re saying that does not mean it’s true. It does not mean that’s how your business is being perceived by the intended audience. So how would they know that? And again, it doesn’t mean that you’re retrofitting and rebuilding.
Little acts, small actions, I like to say, are not small in this world because the ripple effect. If you make one change, let’s say a theater, one change. First of all, that theater sees thousands of people per show. That theater’s going to be around for years and years to come. Other theaters are gonna take notice.
They might make the same change. Things can move pretty quickly. So, even though I say small actions, the reality is there is no small action. Every action is a step forward down this path with no end.
Alycia Anderson: I love that. And you’re so right. All of those pieces, too, go directly to the comment that you made earlier on, which is the education. They don’t know what they don’t know. So if you’re proving this case, then there’s some accountability that will hopefully be taken thereafter. I think that’s super powerful.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I just met with a theater the other day. The theater manager was explaining that in their private boxes, there’s a four-inch step up. He was concerned about this.It was great. It was a very specific situation that he understood was a barrier. And he said, “What can I do about this stuff? It’s at an angle. There was no way to ramp it.” I wasn’t there personally. And he’s looking for solutions, and I said, “Here’s what you can do today. What color is your carpet? Black.” He said, “Yeah, it’s black in the theater.” I said, “Go to Home Depot or Lowe’s. I’m not pushing any one company. Buy some brightly colored electrical tape. Put it on the step. That’s the very first thing you can do, right? Show the step is there. Add some tap lights on the corners of the step to illuminate, so people can see the step. Put a sign up at eye level pointing down the symbol to the step. ‘Watch your step or a step here or something.’ Put some grab bars up.”
Those are four things off the top of my head that cost him next to nothing, that help mitigate the fact that there’s a step there. But more importantly, they show the audience that they’ve thought about something that they understand is a problem, and they’ve offered a solution. Is it perfect? No, but it’s a solution.
Alycia Anderson: I think that whole conversation of things not being perfect doesn’t mean that you don’t try, because you can continually do better on it. I think that’s a really great story and example that probably would give organizations a little bit more comfort navigating the conversations. Everybody’s so worried about being perfect and not making mistakes, so we don’t have progress.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Exactly.
Alycia Anderson: So let’s talk about accessibility through culture change. I really wanna talk about the story. The seatbelt story. 48 years ago in a car. I want you to tell the story. When I was reading this, we were talking about this before we started. Marty is a wheelchair user because of this exact similar experience.
I want you to talk about the dramatic culture shift when accessibility is integrated into a scenario like this. Wasn’t there before. Now it is. And how that can translate to today.
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Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah. So born in 1972.
Alycia Anderson: Love it.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: When I was four years old, we had the big station wagon with the faux wood paneling on the side. The bench seat in the front that was vinyl. It was slick as ice or scorching hot, right? Burn your skin. And as a 4-year-old, I was sitting in the front seat of the station wagon. My mother was the driver. My brother was actually sitting by the door. And I was sitting back, my back against the seat. My brother was leaning forward with his head resting on the dashboard. Neither one of us are wearing any sort of harness or seatbelt. I weighed about 40 pounds maybe. I was a waif of a kid. As we rounded the turn near our church, about 35 miles an hour I’m told my mom was going, the door flew open, my brother stayed in the vehicle, and I flew out right behind him and landed on the pavement. I did not sustain any known injuries from that fall, but it was terrifying, not just for my mother, but for my brother. Because in his five-year-old mind, he pushed me out of the car.
In his five-year-old mind, he was the one responsible for this because he stayed in the car and I did not. And like I said, I sustained no injuries. But as a parent today, in a million years, you would never have a 4 and 5-year-old unharnessed in a front seat of a vehicle. You wouldn’t have them unharnessed in a vehicle, nor would you have them in the front seat with you. There are cultural implications of that. If you were driving down the street and you saw that, you would make a phone call to nine one one. But there’s also legal implications of that, right? It’s illegal to drive in the front seat without a seatbelt on. I use that just as an example. In my lifetime, the culture around vehicular safety has evolved so much that we now have laws in place to keep us safe in a vehicle. I couldn’t do this work if I didn’t believe this. So that was 48 years ago. 48 years from now, things like grab bars, ramps, elevators, ASL. All these things are going to be so common, that generation looks back at us and thinks that we are crazy. The way I think my mom was insane for putting my brother and I in the front seat of that station wagon. I really believe that we are on the beginning stages of this cultural wave that’s coming because of people like Alycia and myself, and many others. And I think the younger generation is more inclusively minded. I think they’re generally more apathetic. We hear all the time how the younger generation has no problem solving, no critical thinking skills, but they have the empathy. Seeing my daughter’s generation, the 13 year olds. When they come and volunteer, they are so fulfilled and they’re amazing. Because to them, this is just the way it should be. There’s no questioning, there’s no unlearning. And so again, 48 years from now, I think that what you and I are fighting so hard for today is going to be more the norm.
Alycia Anderson: I believe so, too. That is an incredible, powerful story, and it does show the shift in culture, honestly, in a relatively short amount of time. Just really impactful. Disability and accessibility really does affect cultural shifts and growth.
That’s a palatable story right there. Absolutely incredible. Beyond bizarre that Marty 48 years ago, in a station wagon, fell out of the door.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I know. When he told me his story, I thought, “That so easily could have been my story.” And then through a really circuitous path, I end up in the same community as Marty, from obviously a very different perspective. Actually, in one way you could look at it, just a really beautiful example of the power of bringing people together, that power of connection. Marty and I ended up having something in common, and you don’t know that if you don’t have the chance to be with other people. One of the things I think about is when kids and people are separated. And I know you talked about this in your TED talk about how when you were first in school, you were in a separate classroom and then your mom had to fight to get you included in mainstream. What comes to mind is the idea of making friends. When kids are excluded, obviously, they have no opportunity to make friends with, we call ’em the general education kids. But I like to look at it the other way, in that the general education kids are missing out on the opportunity to make friends with the kids who have disabilities. And the reason I flip it is because of this glass children concept that you mentioned in the beginning. We know that siblings like Porter and Regina gain empathy and problem-solving skills, in spades, at a much younger age, because they have grown up with somebody with a disability. That is a gift, and I think that gift, everyone deserves. I think all students, all people deserve the gift of gaining those empathy and critical thinking skills, but that won’t happen if people are excluded. So we’re doing a disservice. Obviously, we all know we’re doing a disservice to the individuals with disabilities, but we’re doing an equally profound disservice to everybody else.
Alycia Anderson: I totally agree. This also translates to the conversation that you and I were having about the work that we’re in, the advocacy that we’re doing, disability versus non-disabled. In the space, doing the work, who belongs where, all those things. The power of community, like you’re saying, and looking at the beautiful component that the non-disabled world brings to this advocacy is extremely important that we’re supporting each other. I wanna dive into the glass children a little bit more because I really want to lift up the sisters, the brothers, the siblings, the friends that are often so present, so involved. But potentially put to the side a little bit or somewhat invisible in the overall story in the moment, because the disability is always so present. We’re dealing with these barriers that are taken away from their experience too, because we’re trying to manage all this inaccessibility.Let’s put the glass children under the spotlight for a minute. Can you just dive a little deeper there, please?
Meghan Connolly Haupt: So we know that the biggest indicators of success in life are not your affluence, or what school you went to, or what your SAT scores were. The biggest indicators of success in life are creativity and empathy. That is just true aside from the glass children scenario. There’s been some studies done that show that glass children actually end up being more successful in life than their peers. So the reason I know that is because when I was sitting in NICU with Tatum on my chest, bawling my eyes out, not just because of Tatum’s future, but really because of Porter’s future. Porter was 21 months old when Tatum was born prematurely. And my first thought is, “Oh my God, how do I take care of Porter?” I knew I could figure out how to take care of Tatum, but I didn’t know how to take care of Porter’s needs. And like you said, the disability is ever present. So I started Googling, “siblings of disability.” I’m sitting there Googling while I’m giving Tatum skin to skin time.
She’s a pound at birth. I finally found that research that showed that the siblings have a higher degree of success in life, and then I exhaled.
Okay. Okay. Porter’s gonna be okay. When you meet her now with the way she presents herself in the world, may or may not be because she’s a glass child, but it certainly has contributed to it. She is incredibly self aware, incredibly aware of her surroundings, very articulate with her emotions. I will say, and I’m so curious to see if you have a response to this, that she sees, at a young age, some of the worst that our culture has to offer. She sees the difference in her opportunities and her sister’s. It eats at her.
Alycia Anderson: It’s getting to her a little bit. She’s in this stage, developmentally, where she’s trying to reconcile, “How can I be a good, happy person when I know that all this negativity exists in the world? How do I reconcile that?” I’m curious your take on that, because she is so just keenly aware of the challenges that a lot of our society faces. What are the age ranges, right now, of your girls?
Meghan Connolly Haupt: So Porter’s 13 and Tatum’s 11.
Alycia Anderson: Yeah, so that’s a tough age, and it’s gonna get a little tougher as they go through high school. It is reminding me of a story that my sister tells. All my siblings have these experiences in their own right. And I often lean over to my twin, ’cause we are just side by side my whole life.
And then my other siblings are like, “Hey, we’re still invisible over here. You’re never talking about us.” My sister, like in high school, she would go to the dances, right? She’d get asked to go to every dance, and we had very similar social friend groups and experiences. But when it came to those types of events, I would get ready and she would go, and I would have dinner with my parents.
For me, it was just always this really, ugh, just gut wrenching kind of experience at that age.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah.
Alycia Anderson: What I didn’t know is what she was going through, which was the guilt and the torment of having to leave me behind. Feeling terrible seeing the discrepancies and what she gets to do versus what I get to do.
Those aren’t easy experiences, and they’re not gonna be for your kids, either. At least in my situation, my sister was my most strategic tool and ally growing up and into my career. While I was still trying to find my advocacy, she would always very naturally find ways for me to be involved.
Always gimme a seat at the table. The first few jobs I ever had, she went in and advocated for them to give me a shot when I didn’t know how to do that myself. It sounds like your kids are going through identifying the differences.
But they’ll also figure out the power in navigating that as they develop. At least that’s what happened to both of us. To your point, it translated into leadership skills, and corporate growth, and how you adapt situations for your teams. There’s all kinds of things that translates into life later.
But there’s emotionally painful periods of figuring out that the world just isn’t fair, and it’s not gonna be, and how you create happy places in that.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: It’s interesting as a parent to be observing that growth process Porter is going through. I have a video of them looking for their Easter baskets last year that so perfectly illustrates how Porter seamlessly helps her sister without even thinking about it. In this video, they’re searching for their Easter baskets, which are hidden in the house. Porter opens a closet and sees something that is meant for Tatum, tucked in one of the coats. And without skipping a millisecond, Porter continues about, she goes, “Hey, Tatum, come over here.”
Alycia Anderson: Oh.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: And just calls her sister over and starts talking to Tatum in a way that is guiding her eyes. Porter going about her business. Tatum, all of a sudden, her eyes fall on that item and she squeals. Porter just keeps going about her business. It’s hard to articulate. I’m not doing a great job with that. I’m telling the story, but it’s just a really beautiful 20 second video that shows how ingrained this all is for Porter. And you think, “Oh my gosh. If everybody had that heightened level of awareness like Porter does, how different our world would be. I think you’ve made the same point. The barriers that we talk about that we see, the curb cuts and the handsfree door entry.
Those are great. They’re necessary, they’re helpful. But in the end, it’s about how we perceive each other. It’s about what we expect for our community. And if you really care about people, if you really want people to be happy, you want your community to be healthy, then the barrier is the cultural piece, not the curb cut or the door.
Alycia Anderson: And the hardest work is finding a pathway, collectively, to proceed and wanting to do that work. Yeah, you’re absolutely right.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I think if you have limited resources, as a business or an organization, a municipality, a school district, don’t spend your money putting in all the ramps. Spend your money on staff development and training, and really instilling in people this desire for everyone to be there, for everyone to belong.
I’ve interviewed a number of individuals with disabilities. At first, the interview starts with, “Oh, here’s a story where I couldn’t access a building. Here’s a story where I was physically left out.” But it’s funny, in almost every case, the dialogue shifts from talking about physical barriers to believe that I belong, too. I deserve to be there.
It’s funny, At first, our thinking is very much about the physical that we can see and touch. But then it’s, “No, wait. That’s actually not what it’s about.” It’s about just being together and giving everybody the same experience. Now, same experience is not literally the same, it’s the same quality experience, right?
Yes, you needed a separate section at that concert, partially for safety reasons. But it’s creating the environment where everyone can fully experience it. Why do we go to concerts in the first place? We can just listen to the songs on the radio. We go because it’s the power of that shared experience.
I’ll go back to Phish. I just saw them last summer, one of their best shows ever. The thumping and the power of 25,000 people experiencing the music enveloping us, it was so powerful. Listening to Phish on the radio is fun, but it’s not this connection experience the way you get at the live show.
I’m looking around, and everyone has the same look of joy and connection on their face, and that’s what we all deserve. That’s what individuals with disabilities and their community, their friends, and their families are not always getting.
Alycia Anderson: So, if we wanna build these communities and do better in our businesses, how do we work with you? We’re gonna leave everything in the show notes, but I want you to say how we connect with you and all those things.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Yeah, so inclusivesaratoga.com. There are a number of ways to connect. You can email Hello at Inclusive Saratoga. You can request a free 30 minute consultation that is specific to your business or organization. We have free resources we just added. We have one on playgrounds as an inclusive destination, and then we have accessibility as a business strategy, guides for restaurants, cafes, breweries, and entertainment venues.
So definitely go to inclusivesaratoga.com. Just because we are based in Saratoga Springs, New York does not mean that we don’t work outside of this area. We’ve worked with organizations all over the country, because this work is important on a community level, but also on a business level. We can work remotely to help organizations really see that return on investment by doing the right thing.
Alycia Anderson: And it sounds like having a fun time, too.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I try to. I try not to be too serious and heavy about it. It is a serious topic.
Alycia Anderson: Yeah.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: But I try to present it from a perspective of, “We’re in this together, we’re learning, let’s have fun, let’s be innovative and creative.” We know Harvard Business just did an article recently about how inclusion is such a driving force of innovation.
Electric toothbrush, I use one. Voice to tech software when I’m driving, I use it. Those are accessibility tools that really drove innovation. Yeah, reach out through the website. We’d love to hear from you.
Alycia Anderson: I’m sure you’re gonna get a lot of calls. You’re absolutely incredible. I’m so happy that we got to do this today. This is an amazing conversation. I like it. Okay. Pushing forward moment, little motivation to gift away to our community as we sign off.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: I have many mantras, a couple of which I’ve shared with you. But I’ll say relentless forward progress.
Alycia Anderson: Ooh, I like it.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: It applies to so many things in our life. I know Google has a mantra of “you can’t drive looking in the rear view mirror,” so it’s similar to that. Always looking forward, always making progress.
Alycia Anderson: I like it. That’s a perfect pushing forward mantra. Very nice. Meghan, thank you so much for your time. I am so happy that we finally met. I feel like you and I are gonna be working together on something sometime soon. It’s my pleasure to finally meet you.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Thank you so much. Time well spent. Really appreciate everything you do.
Alycia Anderson: Thank you to our community for being so dedicated to the show. This was another great episode. Please share it, like it, review it, all the things. We will be back next week with another episode. Until then, this has been Pushing Forward with Alycia and Meghan, and that is literally how we roll on this podcast. We will see you next week.
Meghan Connolly Haupt: Cheers.