Title:
Trauma-Informed Leadership: Insights with Kellie Burke

Subtitle:
Psychological Safety and Empathy in the Workplace | Mental Health Awareness Month

Transcript:

Alycia Anderson: Welcome to Pushing Forward with Alycia, a podcast that gives disability a voice. Each week we will explore topics like confidence, ambition, resilience, and finding success against all odds. We are creating a collective community that believes that all things are possible for all people. Open hearts, clear paths.

Let’s go.

Welcome back to Pushing Forward with Alycia. I am Alycia Anderson. Happy Mental Health Awareness Month.

It is May.

I am so excited to welcome Kellie Burke. She’s got a master’s degree in social work. She’s working on her doctorate in social work from University of Louisville.

Kellie is a powerhouse. in trauma informed leadership, workplace culture, mental health awareness advocacy. She is a strategic planner. She does program development.

she’s creating environments in the workforce, and honestly in life too, where we all feel like we belong and it’s safe to be who we are.

Kellie Burke: Kellie, welcome. Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. What a perfect month. For us as social workers, this is like the last of the three big celebration months. ’cause you had social work month in March. You had counseling awareness and minority Health Month in April, and now we have Mental Health Awareness Month here in May.

And so it’s just been celebration and advocacy and all kinds of wonderful things over the past couple months. And so it’s awesome to put a cherry on top with the podcast.

Alycia Anderson: I love that you are doing such like heartfelt, important work in our world. Can we start with your inspiration in leaning into this type of work industry?

Just all of it, because I think it takes a really incredible person to dig their heels deep and dive in.

Kellie Burke: Yeah, no, that’s a really great question. And obviously I’m a social worker by trade, right? And I think, a lot of us who get into social work and the social service professions really do it with a sense of purpose and duty.

So it’s really finding ways in which to give back and be a part of something that’s bigger than ourselves, but makes a really lasting impact. And I think everybody wants to do that, right? Like we all want to. Make an impact in some way. Maybe it’s not necessarily in these spaces, but we all wanna have a legacy.

We wanna have an impact or something that we’re doing that means something. And so for me, that was being in the service of others and, I went to Catholic school when I was little and for the longest time, no joke, I wanted to be a nun. Because that was the only exposure to somebody in this space was, it was always, I was always seeing the nuns doing those things, and so I was like, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna be doing that job, so I guess I wanna be a nun. And my aunts used to call me Sister Mary Kellie when I was little. Because like true to form, like I was, that’s what I was gonna do. That’s what I was gonna be. And then I eventually, obviously learned that it’s not just nuns that do social work type of work.

As I got older and really found that it was a profession, but even into college. Social work was not this space was not where I initially really saw myself because I still didn’t, I knew there were people that did it. I didn’t know what it was like what type of job is that?

What is that? And so like initially I was a musical theater major in college. So was gonna be on the stage bringing entertainment to folks. And I’m sure you can see where some of these personality traits are. Then I changed my major. I was gonna be a teacher, right?

I was gonna teach because I wanted to lead people. I wanted to create individuals and help them blossom and grow. But still even that, I was like, that’s just not all of it. And so then I was like, okay, maybe I wanna be a nurse because I wanna help heal people. I want to help people get better into this other place.

But I’m like, there’s still not, this isn’t all of it, right? And so we took all of those things together. And figured out from an advisor that social work was really what I wanted to be doing. And it took all of these things, like I had the ability to be a leader. I had the ability to be a teacher and build and help people blossom and help them heal and help them grow.

And so that’s what brought me to social work.

Alycia Anderson: May I add in that empathetic piece that I know is really important to you. Yeah a fun fact of this conversation so far, I had no idea that you wanted to be a nun, number one.

Kellie Burke: Yes, I know, right?

Alycia Anderson: Nun to theater, to teacher, to nurse, to social work. Like all of those career choices equal like beautiful soul, amazing person. I just wanna sit put that out there because that was really.

Kellie Burke: Yeah, let’s sit with that for a second.

No, I love it, but you’re right.

It really is when we get to it, it is now that I’m in this space as a grownup, as an adult and how do I help other adults, other people, really thrive in the places where they find themselves? And part of that is the trauma-informed leadership the empathy and leadership, those type of things that you talked about.

And it’s funny because a couple months ago I was finally on stage again at a workforce summit and I texted my husband and I was like, Hey, you remember when we first got together and I told you that I was gonna be a big star on stage someday? I was like here we are. We’ve come full circle.

It may not be on Broadway, but here we are. Like I’m doing, I’ve put that passion and that purpose together with things that really fill my cup so I can fill other people. So absolutely.

Alycia Anderson: Love it. That’s so beautiful. That’s how, what’s happened with me too is like ending up on stage to help others where you I always felt like I was supposed to be on some sort of a stage too, even though I was never an actor or anything like that at all.

And you find your way there anyway yeah. Okay. You mentioned the words trauma informed leadership can you explain what that is and just guide us through that a little bit for those of us that are unaware?

Kellie Burke: Absolutely. Trauma informed leadership is really a concept, a leadership concept that has come about in the last, really come into its own, I should say, in the last couple years. It’s been around for a while but really made a big debut in places outside of the healthcare space. Since Covid. But what it really is looking at the individual as like the person in environment.

So you are a product of all of your experiences. You are a product of all of your environment. Some of it is epigenetics, right? Like things that happen to you before you were ever even born, but all of those things come together and make you who you are and ultimately we are all bringing our stuff, our own things.

Our own junk, whatever word you wanna put to it, we’re bringing that with us regardless of where we show up. And trauma-informed leadership, just acknowledges the fact that we all have our own stuff. And it is a set of ways of showing up and performing as a leader that understand and acknowledge we all have our own stuff.

I don’t have to know your stuff. That’s yours. If you wanna share, that’s fine. I don’t have to know the specifics. All I have to know and understand is that you have your stuff and it’s probably different than mine, and that we’re gonna operate in this way that kind of respects and holds that space for that stuff.

Alycia Anderson: I love that. And that leads right into the whole advocacy of non apparent stuff.

Kellie Burke: Yes.

Alycia Anderson: Stability, mental health, whatever that might be. And from a leadership perspective and a workplace perspective as not assuming that those things are not there as like the general consensus. And that was really interesting what you said about the pre-birth. What was that word you just used?

Kellie Burke: Oh, epigenetics.

Alycia Anderson: Yes. Epigenetics.

Kellie Burke: Yeah. So there has been some significant research done that talks about so if we look at trauma. And I won’t go into, ’cause obviously I could do two hour talk on just the trauma piece of it. But if we look at trauma, so you’ve got like big T, which is things that we normally think about when we think about trauma.

So like acts of war like thinking that you’re gonna die, those type of things. So those are big T and then you’ve got little T, which are not as big, but there may be more pervasive. So things like a divorce as if your parents get divorced when you’re a child that’s a little t there’s some other things like not knowing where your next meal could come from, like those type of things.

But when we think about epigenetics, there was research behind that really shows that. And they did it in mice and what they showed was, things that happened to a mouse maybe three generations ago. The impacts of that were still showing up on their baby mice three generations later. And it changes your DNA, it can impact like the way that somebody had like diabetes or ability to lose weight things like that.

So things that happen. Before you’re born can have an impact on the way that you show up without you ever even knowing it. That,had an impact. It’s just you thought it was how, how it was. But there really is a reason and impetus behind it.

Alycia Anderson: So that whole, like it’s in the genes thing is a real.

Yeah, it really is.That is that’s so interesting. I know like from the trauma informed leadership perspective, that if I believe, and you can. Lead us down this path. But I read from you somewhere that when organizations are like taking this into consideration, that can be a game changing for teams or the org organizational like structure.

Can you talk a little bit about that piece of it?

Kellie Burke: Absolutely. So one portion of trauma-informed leadership is really setting up psychological safety within teams. And within organizations, and that is really the game changer for organizational performance. So when we think about some studies that were done by Dr. Amy Edmondson and Dr. Tim Clark, both very pivotal foundational researchers and authors around psych safety. But they did a lot of research on this and what they found was. That teams that had a psychological safety that consistently performed with psychological safety outperformed the teams that did not have psych safety.

And it didn’t matter. Level of professional, it didn’t matter. What they were working on, what industry? The key differentiator was the psych safety. And so as part of trauma-informed leadership, that’s what helps teams perform well. When we think about trauma-informed leadership for the individual, so the individual contributor themselves trauma-informed leadership is directly tied to workplace wellbeingreducing negative attrition. So people stay longer. They’re more committed to you as a brand to you as an individual. And it’s just ultimately operating as a good human being, right? That’s another arm of it. But from an organizational perspective you have both the individual and the team and organizational impact that brings.

Alycia Anderson: Wow. Wow, that’s so interesting. This all the way through as far as you can go. I love it. And then empathy comes in all of this as talk about that bit.

Kellie Burke: Yeah. So from a leadership perspective, I designed a CEUa continuing education for nurses and social workers around trauma-informed leadership.

And there is a whole section in that about empathy, about how empathy is always the answer. If you are coming into a situation, coming into a conversation, empathy is the way to do it. And I will pause there for all of my big business folks listening to say. To remember that empathy does not negate accountability.

Empathy does not mean that you’re not gonna have performance metrics. Empathy does not mean that you’re not going to have deadlines and timelines and all of these things. Again, empathy is just how we are interacting with each other and this expectation, and so what that looks like as a leader. If we take the performance metrics as a example, somebody’s struggling with their performance metrics, okay?

Empathy could look like. Hey, can you help me understand why we’re not able to hit these numbers or what is preventing you? Because also, we’re gonna assume that if we’ve hired these individuals, they’re gonna do a good job. We hired them for a reason, right? We are going to assume that they want to do a good job, and there’s probably something that might be preventing them from getting to that.

And so empathy, what’s, how can I help reduce that barrier? What can I do for you? What resources can we put into place? They’re still accountable for those things, right? Like we still are holding them accountable to their job and their role and what they’re doing. We’re just operating in an empathetic manner that allows us to actually get there quicker, more effectively, and have a longer lasting impact on being able to continue that.

So that’s just one example. There’s lots of different examples that we could use there, but ultimately empathy is always the answer. You’re not gonna go wrong with empathy and curiosity. So the other thing is it has to be true curiosity, right? When I said help me understand what’s keeping you from reaching that.

I’m not saying it like, oh, Alycia, why don’t you tell me what’s keeping you from getting to that, okay?

No, I’m really curious. Help me understand. What it is that I can do, and I’m truly curious about helping you get there. That’s true empathy and true curiosity that gets us there.

Alycia Anderson: Which leads to psychological safe environments.

Kellie Burke: Yes. It’s all,

Alycia Anderson: It’s like positive feedback loop, right?

Kellie Burke: Yeah.

Alycia Anderson: Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. I can see why you’re speaking on stages about some of these things. I think that this is strategy that organizations need to be actively thinking about and implementing. Beautiful.

Kellie Burke: Yeah. Really. Absolutely.

And the other thing, so the reason why I said since Covid that this has been a big topic is COVID really, Put a lot of the big T and the little t on the forefront, right? We could not ignore. We all collectively experienced a trauma together as a society with covid. And then you had the social unrest and you had the political stuff going on and still going on, and, lots of things happening.

And so we really can’t continue to ignore it or sweep it under the rug. Like we are gonna have to face it head on. And this is a tool to be able to face these things head on so that we don’t have negative impacts. Don’t have, don’t lose whatever adjective and term you wanna put to it.

This is a tool that’s gonna help us be successful.

Alycia Anderson: Yeah. And I think right now, especially in the space that we’re in 2025 when workplace cultures are at the forefront of organizations restructuring how they’re finding ways to keep their employees feeling like they belong and that they have space and that it’s psychologically safe and all of those things.

When things like DEI are being canceled and we’re trying to reshift culture, I think this sounds like a beautiful tool and great way to engage with employees and for them to still feel like they’re being seen by their leadership or their coworkers. Really amazing.

Kellie Burke: Yeah. And employees are, if you look at data that companies pull from engagement surveys or feedback loops or whatever, employees, this is what they’re saying, that they want, even older generation employees that maybe had historically or stereotypically been categorized as not wanting these type of things, they’re saying it too.

And our newer generation of associates, are really demanding this. As they come into the workforce, they’re not gonna accept any other way for us to perform. And so we can either cross our arms and say, no, we’re not doing it. Or we can embrace this as a tool and be ahead of the curve.

Alycia Anderson: I love it. I think it’s really beautiful. It’s hopeful. And I think we need that right now. It’s amazing. Do you have a success story? Can you paint a picture of how this has all worked in real time?

Kellie Burke: Yeah. So thinking about the psychological safety piece one thing that really, I.

Surprise me. So it, it happened around maybe like 2021. I was doing some webinar. It was virtual, very much like this. I was on camera. My hair was blue at the time, and after the presentation I had somebody IM me, and she said, Hey your hair’s blue.

I’m like, Ooh, am I about to get, yelled at? I didn’t know where this conversation was going when we started that way.

And I’m like, Hey, yeah, were you on the presentation? Hope you enjoyed it. And she said I just wanted to take a moment and tell you how amazing it was for you to show up that way. And I was like, oh. Okay. That’s alright. Let’s go with this conversation. And so she went on to talk about how me showing up as my authentic self, because that’s a lot of what this is, right?

The ability for folks to show up as who they are, their authentic selves, gave her the permission space to show up as her authentic self. And what she was referring to is she was a black woman and had always felt very self-conscious about her hair and how she wore her hair. And was it professional enough?

Which again a conversation on what professional hair is a whole other topic we could get into, but that was something that she struggled with, right? And she’s now I have the permission. I feel like I have the permission space and I’ve seen somebody model the fact that I can show up as my authentic self with the hair that I wanna have, and it’ll be okay.

And so obviously that is not why I did anything that I did, but the fact that we were able to show up in an authentic manner, show up as our authentic self. We were able to model that behavior. The conversation responded with empathy because of course then after that, helping her think through of course you always could, but I’m glad that, we created this for you.

That type of thing. So honestly, modeling those type of behaviors has really been the best way. ’cause I can talk to I blue in the face about these things. Until you really see it in action and how it can work and how effortless it can feel and then how good that space can feel for you as an associate.

You really don’t grasp, all of the things with it. And so that was probably my favorite story with a lot of this is just how modeling that made the difference. Didn’t cost me anything, didn’t really do anything different than I normally would have, but it had such an impact on somebody else, and that was pretty cool.

Alycia Anderson: I think that’s a really important lesson for everybody who’s listening to this right now, because we’re all modeling things that we’re not thinking about, just like you said, and people are watching us. All the time, whether we’re realizing it or not, the same thing just happened to me at a big event. I was on stage doing my thing, disability rah, I am empowered.

And afterwards, this woman who was visually impaired in one eye, she came up to me and she said, she’s never talked about her disability out loud. And she feels comfortable and she like. I’m blind to one eye. I feel excited to talk about it now, and she keeps messaging me. I’m at work. I just met this other person.

We’re talking about our disability, we’re sharing, and it was just from, it’s not from anything I was modeling, this like piece of me that she took and then is putting off into her universe. So I think that’s a really important lesson for all of us to be aware of.

Kellie Burke: That’s that ripple effect.

Alycia Anderson: Yeah.

Kellie Burke: And, I think Alycia, we’re really seeing the ripple effect happen in some negative spaces right now in this space in, the world and society. And not that it’s not always been important for us to model and ripple the positive, but now we need it more than ever because those are gonna be the reverberations that help to mitigate the negative stuff that’s out there.

That is what’s gonna give folks hope to be able to continue to show up in these authentic ways and to be able to do, going full circle back to what we talked about at the beginning, doing that good and having that positive impact and that legacy that we all wanna ultimately have.

Alycia Anderson: Yeah, and I’m glad that you brought that up because I wanna shift a little bit ’cause I really wanna talk about another topic as well that In line. And it comes in line with that piece of what is some of the negative things that can come across our table at work. And I know you do a lot of research on workplace bullying and how this is like an unspoken issue in the workplace. Can we talk about that a little? I like, we started talking about this, I don’t know, a few weeks ago, and I was like, I really wanna bring this topic up on the podcast. Can we, like you talk about.

Kellie Burke: Yeah. Yeah. So I think workplace bullying is something that maybe folks are intricately familiar with the feeling or seeing it, but they may not necessarily know what it is or that it’s called workplace bullying. Because a lot of times we hear bullying, we think of that kid on the playground, when we were 12 whatever that, that type of picture. And of course that is, but ultimately it is what I would think of as an individual in the workplace.

That might be, and I don’t like using the word in uncivil because civility, what is civil, what is uncivilized, but that’s probably the best term to use right now for our discussion. It’s somebody in the workplace who just is consistently uncivil, uncooperative and a lot of times it’s not outright either.

Like it might be in passing, they might say, have a comment. A lot of times we see it as microaggressions. But they know what they’re doing. It’s not an accident, right? Like it is very intentional and a lot of times very hard to identify and address because again, they know what they’re doing.

They’re doing it on purpose. They’re more sneaky about it, I guess is a good way to define it. And so when we think about workplace bullying, when we talk about the research and the data that comes back from a lot of large corporations, it’s actually the reason why a majority of folks will actually resign or leave a company is related back to workplace bullying.

So it’s not. Wages, it’s not salary, it’s not, A lot of times even the leader, like we, we hear oh, people don’t leave a job, they leave a leader. But a lot of times it’s not even the leader. It is the fact that they are being subjected to this type of interpersonal violence in the workplace that isn’t addressed or doesn’t have a good way to mitigate it.

Alycia Anderson: What’s an example? It’s like a passive aggressive, like action, right? Can you?

Kellie Burke: It can be passive aggressive, but sometimes it’s outright. So I have heard stories of folks, who, there’s somebody on their team or that they work with or in a collaborative space that just says I don’t desire to work with you.

I don’t think I should have to I’m, I have more tenure, I have more skill, I have more whatever. And you shouldn’t be here. And so it’s literally, sometimes it can be outright, other times it is passive aggressive or more below the radar. So maybe they sabotage a project that you were in charge of so that it looks like it, was your issue that created the falling apart.

It could be, starting rumors about you in the workplace or with a leader or speaking ill about you in a one-on-one or whatever that isn’t founded. So I wanna make sure that I also call that out. It isn’t that somebody was underperforming and we said this individual isn’t meeting their metrics.

This is, we’re talking about things that are not true that should be handled in a more professional and honestly mature manner. These interactions feel very much like middle school and high school when they should feel like adult interactions where we talk about things. We bring things out, we have conversations to resolve issues.

Does that help?

Alycia Anderson: Yeah, I just think it’s fascinating because I feel like all those things that you’re saying happens,

and when you started talking to me about it, I was like, gosh, this feels more common than it isn’t.

The term workplace bullying and connecting those dots. I never did when I was in my corporate life. So I think it’s very interesting to have the conversation about how common is this? It’s extremely common and I think we can all, yeah and I’m sure every one of us listening and engaging in this conversation can think about interactions where we’ve had something like this happen. Now there are cultures and organizations where it happens more often or it’s more accepted or if not accepted, it’s, there’s nothing that’s done to address it.

And so obviously what we don’t address persists. So it, it also can very much be impacted by the culture of the organization, but even in the most culturally progressive. Set up, whatever has all the best vision, mission, and values, it can still happen ’cause it’s dependent on the individual.

And it’s very prevalent. But going back to what we talked about that kind of newer generation of employees. They are less and less putting up with that malarkey and calling it out. And they’re bringing it to the forefront, which I think is why we’re hearing more about it. And it feels like, why are we hearing more about it?

It’s because these individuals are not just letting it happen or, maybe like for myself in the past, I might’ve been like maybe I just didn’t go about that the right way. Or maybe they’re right, or maybe I should have known better, or whatever. We excused it away giving that bully the power, and now folks are saying, Uhuh, we’re not giving nobody power and this is not acceptable and I’m not putting up with it.

Alycia Anderson: I love what you just said. Whatever we don’t address persists. And I think that is really important with workplace bullying and frankly, a lot of what’s going on in our world, yeah. And I think that’s a powerful statement right there that kind of encourages us to put action behind it., So how do

organizations take meaningful change if things like this are brought up?

So we’ll go back to the empathy. oh, I love it.

Kellie Burke: And responding with empathy and believing the individuals, bringing those. So let’s say it’s, two individuals that are having an issue is bringing that to light and having that conversation.

And because I think a lot of times folks don’t bring it up or don’t try to address it because they don’t think anything’s gonna be done about it. And so just making sure that if that information is brought to you, if any information, if any data is brought to you, that you do something about it and even if it is let’s start, documenting some of this.

Maybe it’s having a conversation, whatever it might be. I think too, going back to the psychological safety is building teams and organizational cultures that are characterized by psychological safety. Permits the individuals to be able to come with those things. But it also empowers the team to call that out themselves when they see it.

So they’re gonna hold each other accountable for the expected behaviors. Another big way to mitigate that is. What I like to call shared agreements. So any time I start a presentation or any type of interaction, I typically start with shared agreements. It’s things that we all agree to that we’re gonna abide by.

And part of that can be respectful communication, whatever the team wants to do. And again. When you have those things, the team will hold itself accountable with each other. They’ll say, Hey, I don’t think that was respectful communication, or, I’m not sure this should have happened that way, whatever it might be.

And so it really becomes this cohesive ecology of a team and an organization that doesn’t allow for it to be a Petri dish for workplace bullying and those negative behaviors.

Alycia Anderson: You know what’s beautiful about that too is that creates an environment where if you feel safe to say to somebody, you know what? I don’t feel like that was respecting this one thing we agreed on, and this is how, maybe it could have been done better. We’re also collaborating on, becoming better in those situations and doing better in our own, spaces. So I think that’s really helpful. ’cause I think it’s really easy to sit in our own mess and not adjust it and become better unless you’re have help from the people around you.

So I really like that.

Kellie Burke: Exactly. In worst case slash best case scenario, somebody didn’t realize that they were not following it or not being respectful or whatever. Then that gives them the space to say. Oh my gosh. I’m sorry, that wasn’t the intention. How can I make it better?

Alycia Anderson: I love it.

Kellie Burke: And then there’s no harm, no foul. We can move forward together better. But best case scenario, we get to actually address negative behaviors that shouldn’t persist.

Alycia Anderson: Ah, so good. You’re so smart. I love this. So I really wanna talk about one other thing really.

Kellie Burke: Yeah.

Alycia Anderson: Okay.

So for my community that’s listening to this right now, when I have an amazing guest come on, I send them a little form and I say, what should we talk about? And they always send me these little nuggets. And one of the themes on Kellie’s list was sheep farming and beekeeping.

Oh my gosh. We have to talk about this.

I just want to hear about this piece of your life and honestly how caring, for animals being in nature, let’s bring that all back together for mental health awareness month. What does this do for you as a human?

Kellie Burke: Oh my gosh. So for those that don’t know, which is probably like everybody listening, so we have a hobby fiber farm here in Northern Kentucky,

It’s called Atavistic Acres. And so it’s springtime and a couple months ago was lambing season. And so we have 12 lambs on the ground that have created little baby gangs. We call them. They like run together and they jump. It’s super cute. It’s the most precious thing ever. And so I will take meetings sitting outside in the field with the sheep because it just is so the saying like, go touch grass, but literally get outside. Be a part of that. ’cause it really does recharge your soul and your brain and your heart and all of the things.

So they are definitely a lot of fun. And then in the fall we get to do a lot of educational outreach around Easter time. We will take them to like nursing homes, things like that, and do like lamb selfies and lots of cute stuff. Then we have an apiary, which is the word for beehives.

And my husband mostly does that. I don’t get in with the bees, but we have honey and all kinds of fun stuff.

Alycia Anderson: That’s incredible. I am feeling a little fomo that we didn’t do that when I was there. I need to come back specifically for a selfie with a lamb, A baby lamb.

Kellie Burke: And we have little lamb ambassadors. We call them little lamb ambassadors.

Alycia Anderson: Oh my God, that’s this was a really amazing conversation. I love everything that you’re doing and I cannot wait to see where you take all of this. It’s super powerful. And I think that this could help a lot of organizations to be honest with you. I’m sure you know that.

So congratulations, Kellie, on being a total badass on this. It’s amazing.

Kellie Burke: Thank you.

Alycia Anderson: Yeah. We’re gonna leave your information so everybody can find you if they wanna work with you, with this type of research and work that you’re doing. Did we miss anything?

Kellie Burke: No. I think we got everything.

Alycia Anderson: I think we had a great conversation.

Kellie Burke: Yes, we did.

Alycia Anderson: Okay. So it’s your pushing forward moment before we wrap up. Little bit of inspiration mantra, something to leave behind for our community. Do you have anything top of mind?

Kellie Burke: So top of mind for me would just be curiosity kills judgment. So stay curious my friends.

Alycia Anderson: Curiosity kills judgment and stay curious. I love that so much. I’m so happy that you’re in my life. Thank you for your time. This is gonna be one of the fan favorites for sure. This was a great episode and an awesome Mental Health Awareness Month. Kellie, thank you so much and thank you to our community for joining us.

I will see you next time. This has been pushing forward with Alycia. And that is how we roll on this podcast.