I recently had the honor of contributing to “Planetary Health First, Mars Next” in an issue focused on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility (DEIA). The opportunity to share my insights with Michael Mann on how these principles can create equitable environments was inspiring. DEIA isn’t just about addressing immediate needs—it’s about envisioning a future where everyone, regardless of their abilities or background, can thrive. I’m excited about the collective work we’re doing to build more inclusive spaces for all.

Transcript:

Awesome. Well, this is Planetary Health First, Mars Next. And I’m the host, Michael Mann. And man, I am so excited that I have such a premier, amazing individual that I just really feel privileged and honored that we have Alycia Anderson on today. And gosh, a TED Talk, CEO, everything and everything.
And that you had time just to stop, come out of the, from Mars or wherever you came from outer space. And- and stop by today. Tell us a little bit about yourself before we get going and diving into a fun topic.
It was a long trip from Mars to get here. Thank you so much for the invitation. I appreciate that. I’m Alycia Anderson, who I am. I’m a motivational speaker. I am a disability inclusion advocate, specifically in the workplace. I advocate for… the inclusion and advocacy of people with disabilities in the workplace to have
space to be represented and to be valued, to be hired. I advocate for accessibility and the value of that and what it drives in the workplace specifically. My TEDx speaker, I’m a podcaster too, pushing forward with Alycia, small plug. Yeah, and I’ve been doing this work for quite some time. I am a lifelong wheelchair user.
I was born with a disability called sacral agenesis. So I’ve been on this journey my whole life and the way society is and the way that we look at disability through an ableism lens is, you know, it requires people with disabilities to kind of fight their way through to have
their seat at the table and in many situations in life. So, Yeah, I’m just doing the work. I work with a ton of global organizations from Victoria’s Secret, NBC, Comcast, school districts and technology companies and everywhere in between. So I’m having a lot of fun doing the work that I’m doing and more importantly,
hopefully allowing others with disabilities who might not be in the space that I am ready to identify and talk about it I’m hoping that they see a small glimpse of something in me that is representative of them and gives them the courage to leverage their disability as power instead of a limitation.
Yeah, thank you. Was there ever a moment in time where you’ve like, you know, I know we all struggle through life with our confidence or whatnot. Was there a defining moment where you really all of a sudden like, I got this?
I mean, I wanted to hide my disability most of my life. I was born an identical twin to an able-bodied sister, actually. So I’ve been continually chasing after the literally the able bodied half of me, one egg split into two. And for most of my life, you know, I was trying to keep up with the Joneses and,
you know, hide my disability as best I can. It’s not very easy to hide a wheelchair, but, you know, mask a lot of the challenges that I would run into to just fit in. to a world that, frankly, isn’t built for me and has a lot of bias towards what my abilities are or are not.
And depending on the season of life, the age made me pretty insecure and made me want to hide it and not not expose or discuss that part of my identity. But as I have aged and gone through many ups and downs in life experiences, I’ve also realized that pushing through the tough stuff in life,
pushing through challenges and adversity, if you’re bold and brave enough to at least try, you might not overcome everything, but The path to trying and experiencing the tough stuff in life gives you that bravery and that will and that want to try again. And for me, it took me until my 40s to be like, yes, I’m disabled.
Let’s talk about it on stage. But once I did, I really have seen not only its impact to the people that I’m speaking with, the organizations that I’m working with. um, the value that it brings to society and the workplace, but also the, um, I guess the acknowledgement of myself, you know,
like when I started to actually lean into the things that I felt like I needed to hide, cause they were so different than, than typical and I’m air quoting if you’re not watching, but typical abilities, um, it was freeing. It’s free to be who you are. Um, and
the more I dip my toe in like, oh, I think I’m gonna share this. How will that land? And it is unbelievable how that feels as a human when we all have stuff that we wanna hide and that we want to have different. And it’s how do you take those differences instead of them being limiting,
leverage them as attributes, as something that you can leverage in life that makes you better, that makes you more creative or whatever it might bring to the table. And so once I put power in the path, Even if I was faking it sometimes, you know, sometimes you got to fake it until you get comfortable too.
But a lot of doors started to open up once I started leaning in.
Where do you see the biggest opportunity in our, you know, country or globe to really create inclusion for companies to add value with this?
I mean, there’s a lot of areas. There isn’t just one. Disability inclusion is so multifaceted because there’s so many barriers. It isn’t just one thing. From a value standpoint, if you’re looking at accessibility, accessibility initiatives a lot of times in the workplace that’s looked at as like
under a compliance lens we have to do this because of ADA if you’re in the united states like this is a requirement and it’s we make it a compliance issue not a human issue and when companies like like we were talking about before we started like the Microsoft’s or
There’s Apple and there’s companies out there that embed accessibility into their philosophy and their company, not just we built this feature, now how do we make it accessible, but we build accessibility into infrastructure, product development. HR, hiring, training, every department as a requirement before you launch anything, it drives innovation.
It creates tools and services and products and infrastructure that we all choose universally, disabled or not, because when you create something where you’re looking at all abilities it’s innovative and it’s intuitive it’s the path of least resistance and our world is built for an able-bodied experience and that experience is frankly
impossible to maintain our entire lives because we age we get sick we have broken bones we get cancer we get like there’s long covet i mean there’s a million things that can happen to our human body and so um accessibility from that standpoint it’s super innovative and powerful like If you think of things you use today,
like texting and closed caption and automatic door openers and electric toothbrushes, there’s so much that we use today as human beings, disabled or not, that we’re developed for accessibility. There’s…
I feel like, Alycia, I feel like there’s so much opportunity. Like right now, I’ve been on a journey. My father’s 91. He’s in hospice. He has dementia. He’s had frailty. But there’s so much overlap with disability that that universal design where we could get it right with the cognitive impairment.
And just the fact that the raised toilet seat, the shower bench and then the walker and then the shortness of from his bedroom to there. And then he was so he struggled to have the. cognitive ability to say, you know what, I’m afraid of falling in the bath.
That was the problem at some point until we got the shower bench. I know this is just one slice, but I’m hoping, I feel like you’re the connector with all these other areas where we if you know we’re talking a mass market of challenges that could be
solved with the apples the Walmart’s all these designed right products and save a lot of wasted design so I’m just I just opened that up and then I’ll stop and let
you go go forward yeah there’s a there’s a theory called the curb cut effect and what that is is if you take an image or the infrastructure of a ramp a curb cut that goes off of like sidewalks where there’s curbs so it’s accessible for wheelchairs that innovative piece of infrastructure um was developed for
accessibility but we use it for strollers for shopping carts for and that’s the same theory of this universal like view of how are we creating things and what impact does it have and value does it have not only on disabled people, but everyone. And when you think about that, there’s over a billion people worldwide.
It’s one in four of us. It’s over 60 million Americans in the United States. And when we have businesses or organizations and companies and we’re not creating accessible paths forward to be consumers, Companies are leaving a ton, billions of dollars on the table, number one.
And you’re also telling society, we will sell to everybody but that over a billion people. They don’t deserve to be our customer, consumer, partner, all of that. employee, you know, so but we’ve gotten away with that methodology for a very long time because of ableism, which is when we favor one over someone with a disability.
We’re taught in our society that disability needs to be fixed or healed or adjusted. So we fit into this again, this like unrealistic able body perspective, lived experience, which is, again, not the reality of the human experience.
Alycia, I’m so glad you’ve come here. You came from Mars or wherever you’re out of this world. And I’m going to really run with that metaphor. So forgive me. But how how do you I mean, how do you come in if you can share? I love your thinking.
I imagine some of your work is on a consultative role. Can you kind of come in as if you’re like providing that expertise to Apple or Microsoft? Because I imagine there’s a lot of health care people that are listening when this
is on the air and they would love to scoop you up as a product design or whatever it be. So.
Yeah, so I love it, number one, that you have tied to healthcare. I work a lot with big business healthcare from the Blue Shields to Humana’s to AbbVie’s to Big Pharma, like all of that. I actually was, I just, I live in California and I was just appointed the first seat
from the insurance commissioner of California, Ricardo Lara. I got the first seat for somebody with a disability on the insurance diversity task force. So I’m bringing like the voice of disability to hopefully some legislation, too, and some policy change. But to your question, my business is kind of set up with several different arms and roots.
I do a lot of keynote speeches. My platform is called Heart of Inclusion, and that’s very intentional in that I come in and I teach about accessibility and the numbers and disability and how it’s our common ground, not the thing that separates us. And it’s a part of our identity and all of those things.
But language and how do you say disability and what are microaggressions and all that stuff. But I also talk about the human experience. And so I do a lot of coming in and like, motivating, inspiring, and a lot of education. I’ve got training modules that are either employee-based or I’ve got a
disability-inclusive leadership training that’s really trying to teach leaders. How do we get buy-in from leadership? Because that’s a huge component of it. And I definitely do some consulting as well, but I travel the world and I’m hitting a ton of stages. And the motivational piece is very specific and it’s not motivational like I’m motivating you,
making you happy that you’re not this and I am. It’s more like I’m motivating you and organizations to lean into this, to have a shift in lens, take action and, you know, join this community that we’re trying to change the way that we are that we’re looking at disability, that we’re believing in disability or not.
Because the facts are there’s employees, one in four. If there’s one in four of us with a disability, they’re all over the workplace. They’re not raising their hand that often because We’re taught, like, you won’t get the raise. You won’t be hired. There’s a bias that we can’t do the job.
And so how do we create that, like, place of belonging where disabled people feel sick? Because 70 to 80% of disabilities are non-apparent. Like, they’re not the girl in the wheelchair that you are going to clearly see. And those people struggle. Like, they’re masking their disability. You know, 50% of…
employees that are in technology development, 50% are neurodiverse. They’re not raising their hand because there’s fear of retribution, fear of not being promoted, fear of not being high. I mean, there’s fear of even asking like, hey, I’ve got dyslexia. I need this thing on my computer.
You know, it’ll help me perform 20 because there’s so much discrimination and bias towards disability. It’s a big mountain to climb.
And you’re definitely moving the needle. What do you think is the biggest thing that needs to happen in the next few years on this front?
We need there to be a major focus on accessibility as, again, like a philosophy in organizations. We need legislation and policies to advance. ADA and Rehabilitation Act and the legislation that’s out there, it’s foundationally important but it’s bare bone basic and a lot of organizations stop
there we’ve got the ramp we’re good but how do we look at the bigger picture to say is you know like what are the other things how can we make these processes smoother and it really comes with with like policy change and looking at every department and and creating
ongoing training to understand so employees feel comfortable, even not even employees like society. So many people are like, can I say disability? How do you feel if I open the door? I mean, we’re basic. We’re at the basic level of this conversation. So we need a lot more awareness, representation, education.
We need to hire people with disabilities, put them in leadership roles. there’s a saying and disability inclusion advocacy, nothing for us without us. A lot of decisions historically have been made, but from able-bodied people without us assuming, you know, and not to discount them because I’m sure there’s a lot of good work to, but, but put,
you want to build something innovative or have accessibility in your technology, hire a blind person, an expert to come in and tell you how the experience is, and include disability in the DEI efforts that are going on. Out of 90, all of the companies that have implemented DEI in the last four or five years,
90% of companies have implemented something. Only 6% include disability in that topic of diversity and how do we create belonging for people with disabilities in the workplace? That is a big gap. That’s a big miss. That’s a huge miss. So there’s a lot of work. There’s a lot of barriers, a lot.
So what is the population of those who have disability in America at this point that’s been identified?
It’s about 62 million. It’s over 62 million at this point. Over the last couple of years, disability inclusion has started to become more amplified than ever, which has been incredible. I didn’t think I would see it in my lifetime at all. And that is creating more people raising their hand and self-IDing. That number,
the statistics that we have, it’s only accounting for the people who are willing to raise their hand. And there’s a lot of people who either don’t want to identify out of fear or don’t even realize that they’re disabled. I mean, a lot of, I have a friend,
she’s an advocate and she is a little person and she was at a store one day and this elderly lady walked up to her with a cane and said, oh, I could never live a day like that. And, you know, this girlfriend, the little person looks up at her and she’s like, what are you talking about?
You’re disabled. You’re holding a cane. Like you’re disabled too. Like you are living it right now. So there’s, you know, there’s, there’s a thing called internalized ableism where people don’t either believe or identify or want to have an association with that part of their body, because we are taught that disability is a limitation.
And what I’m trying to do is shift the impossibilities of yesterday into the absolutely 100% possibles of tomorrow. The difference between the impossibles of yesterday and the possibles of tomorrow is our belief in them and creating space and access that works for the majority So,
yeah, well, I just I just I just feel like you’re such an inspiring like obviously I get why you’re a big component is your keynote and you’re speaking because you are a really force to be reckoned with. You are inspiring. You inspire me. So I know you’ve got to be inspiring just about everyone that hears you.
You don’t get to be a TED talk. speaker without, you know, getting through all that, um, trying to get, you know, accepted and whatnot and all that you’ve done. And, uh, it’s a mighty task. Are you doing like, is there a panel of others or committees of, of, are there other Alycia’s out there?
Just seems like, um, are you involved with any other groups to try to mobilize, uh, this effort?
It’s so interesting that you say that. Do I seem like it’s the only me? Because I think what that is, there is many disability advocates. There’s many versions. There’s many different platforms and organizations and all of it. I think the trick there is, and what I challenge some of the people that come through my platform is,
we need to change our algorithms. We’re not receiving the information. There’s a lot like I’m so inundated by it. I’m like, am I good enough? Like, oh, my gosh, I’m trying to keep up with the Joneses. So but that’s the problem with and why representation is so important. We’re starting to see representation of disability on social media.
We’re starting to see it more in commercials and the Paralympics 2024 Paris opening ceremonies is today and being launched. How much are we hearing about that? You know what I mean? Like the Olympics, it always follows the Olympics, the representation, the marketing, the media. It’s just it’s so far behind.
And so I guess the question the answer is there’s a ton. It’s just whether we’re showing interest in once general society like able bodied people are exposed to, let’s say, a Paralympic Games or you see the immense amount of like talent that comes from and power and strength that comes from disabled people.
And then you start going, oh, wow, that’s really awesome.
I want to watch that. Yeah. I just feel like when you talk about 60% of the population or 60 million, 20% of our population in the United States, the immense leverage capacity, obviously there’s levels of disability. Some people really just have struggles, but then there’s people like you that are off the grid.
You’re doing tenfold more than anyone with all of your your efforts and your involvements, but it just, if there’s, like you said, like the Microsoft of the world that are, you know, utilizing, you know, those that are on the spectrum or neurodiversity and their coding,
it just seems like there needs to be a better way to capture these gifted or unique experiences people of differences and disabilities and their strengths and leverage that ability to accelerate innovation. And so how can we do that better?
I mean, there’s companies out there like there’s a company called Disability Solutions. There’s a company called making space. There’s several many organizations out there that support hiring processes and infrastructure and planning and all of those things. Again, it really does take the fortitude and the effort to embed this as a priority and then start to educate
yourself and educate your teams on who are the best partners to help you. There’s a lot of support out there for moving the needle forward. But again, we’re the forgotten child children right now. So, but it is getting better. It’s getting better. And we’re like conversations like this, like this is hopefully going to educate some of,
you know, your community too. And, um, people need to see in themselves something here. And once there’s an, it seems to me that like once there’s some type of emotional attachment, like you said, the story about your father or your grandfather, I’m sorry. I can’t remember what it was.
It’s my father. I’m a pleasant surprise, I guess. So it was like, he’s 91 and I don’t want to tell you how old I am. No, I’m almost anyway.
I don’t want to tell you how old I am. I’m almost 52. Yeah. So I’m almost 50. I’m not almost 52. Yeah.
I’m almost 50 also. Right. So this is cool. We’re 74, um, the 74 magic year, maybe. So what, what is the, what do we need to talk about? We were almost, we got a good bit left. We were not, we’re not, uh, you were at the midpoint a little towards the midpoint of the show.
What do we want to drive forward on this call?
I mean, I think all of this was really good stuff. I, you know, I think that another topic that’s important and something that I try to really cover on my own podcast is the diversity and the differences within the disabled community as well.
And that it isn’t just the girl in the wheelchair, that disability can be very intersectional. And it can come in and out of your lives. And it can look very different depending on who you are and what the diagnosis is. And like one diagnosis can look very different than the next and vice versa.
They could be exactly the same. And from my podcast perspective, like I started my podcast because I’m really intentionally trying to bring the voices of disability into regular popular culture and tell the stories of disability and the variation of it. And so for me, like I’m trying to bring on, you know, people that have a stutter,
that have vitiligo, that are, you know, have, you know, that are visually impaired. Like I’m trying to bring on a huge variety of people. So my community goes, oh, yeah. like that I have, that’s me. And this is how I can overcome. And I’m really proud of the work that we’re doing on my podcast specifically, because,
you know, I have 20 somethings like reaching out to me. I never knew that there was content out there like this. It’s you’re like listening to my best friend. And now I feel confident when I’m going into my college class to do this or, And so I think recognizing that disability in itself is very, very,
very diverse and shows up in a lot of different ways.
I love that you’re doing that. You have to see it. You have to show it to know it. And so what you’re doing, you’re showing that for others to know, wow, that’s something representative of me that give hope. So are you doing it once a week? What’s the frequency? What’s the goal?
We’re once a week. We just do 25, 30 minutes, like little bite-sized pieces. So it’s little like nuggets to absorb and kind of take away. And the goal is to just educate and like give experiences, talk about things that we don’t want to talk about. If we can’t even say the word disability, you know,
it’s like we can’t, people have been looking my entire life have been looking, staring, but like over or around me. Like I see them, you know, I’m watched whether I’m like pushing a shopping cart at the grocery store, putting my wheelchair together and getting out of my car if I’m up on the TEDx stage. And
We watch, but we don’t communicate. And that lack of communication of this topic has been a blocker for millennia. You know, we’ve been stuck. Like that’s why we’re not seeing and not included in so many conversations because we’ve been taught from a very young age.
Don’t ask, don’t discuss, look away, maybe take a sneak peek, but don’t offend. And the reality is that we don’t progress as a society on anything if we’re not communicating and collaborating. Like that’s what inclusion is. Inclusion is like learning about somebody else’s perspective and then doing something, sharing it, like discussing it, exploring it.
And so for me, that piece alone, like we teach our kids when they’re young, don’t like curious, like beautiful, you know, for me, and I can’t speak for all disabled people, but for me, I want to engage. I want like talking about my disability is not shameful. It is a part of who I am.
And so I was at a grocery store one time and it was close to Christmas and I was you know, with my cart behind a mom and it was probably seven or eight, a little boy. And the little boy turns around and sees me and he like points at my wheelchair.
He’s like, oh my God, mom, I want that for Christmas. And she looked like she wanted to die. Like literally like shushed him. Like she wanted to get out of there faster than she, you know, and that subtle shush that subtle don’t do that teaches us very young that’s bad look away don’t include don’t hire
They don’t belong, they’re different. And I talk about this in my TEDx talk. My TEDx talk is very centered around ableism. And ableism is a word that I didn’t want to be involved with at all in most of my life too, but it’s very active. It’s the judgment that is put on me constantly.
It’s the no ways, don’t hire, don’t love, don’t invite, don’t adapt. Don’t include, don’t befriend. It’s that fear and the pity lens in which we see disability through. And it’s crippling. Our bias towards disability is so crippling, is way more crippling than disability could be. And we do internalize that as people, as humans, as disabled people.
And then we go, oh, I can’t do that. Society is telling me I can’t do that. And so for me… know i when i was born my parents did not know they were having a kid with a disability and all they knew to do was to just have me be integrated advocate board
as much as my sister would was my able-bodied sister and in that you know i had to learn to like adapt to environments that weren’t ready for me and be pretty nimble and And they really advocated for me to have my space in this world.
And that advocacy and discussing disability and finding a place for it is how we do better. And so we have to allow children to explore conversations, I think. We have to allow adult like as adults, if if if innocent children can say, I want that for Christmas, then an adult should be brave enough to say,
can I say the word disability? And if it’s not OK with you, how do you prefer to be identified? I am trying to learn, you know, I want and we have a hard time doing that. And I can be in a room with chief of DEI at companies that you would know, like huge global companies.
And they’re whispering in my ear still, can I say disability? We have a problem. You know, we’ve got a problem. So for me, disability is not a bad word. For many disabled people, it’s not a bad word. It’s actually something that is an empowering piece of my identity and
know i like to lean into it like I’m a capital d disabled woman when i get on stages and try to like amplify that and put it into a a nicer space when are you gonna write another book I need a book i don’t know another um a book is on my list
I’m just like it’s just one of those things that I’m like how do i get this done so
I don’t know. I think you just keep on doing your podcast and keep on getting out there. And anyone that’s a publisher would be like, and of course they’re going to be like, well, ghostwrite it. And you’re like, no, I can do it. But just your story is so powerful.
The way you articulate that little vignette, that little with the boy. I mean, that’s just real. You can’t get any more real from that and such a powerful lesson. But anyway.
Another lesson, and I share it in my TED Talks, so your audience can go listen to it. But I talk about a little boy that called me monkey arms when I was in third grade. And his punishment at school for doing that was to ride around in a wheelchair for
a whole day so he would feel what it would be like to be me. And this was the adults, the teachers, that’s what they thought would be very effective for him. And I tell the whole story in my TEDx talk, but
It was such an embarrassing moment for me to have to be on a playground with a kid that doesn’t know how to use a wheelchair and for that to be a punishment and what it taught everybody, like all the other kids on the playground, all the adults,
this little boy and me that living with a disability is a punishment. And we need to shift that narrative because it is just another way to live. It’s like, again, it’s a part of the human experience. We’re not all going to have air quoting perfect bodies, what society is telling us is perfect.
And for me, um, I mean, my body’s got a lot of challenges and it always will. I, I, my disability requires a lot of maintenance. It’s I’ve had many surgeries, reconstructive, lots of stuff, and I will continue until the day that I die.
Um, but that’s part of my story, you know, and that’s part of my strength and it’s part of, um, me. finding a way to fight through that adversity and get to the other side and go like, oh yeah, I fricking did that, what’s next? And there’s power in getting through the scary, tough stuff, for sure. So yeah,
yeah, I hear you’re just like a robust, resilient, empowering, bold individual with courage, but with a big heart with empathy. I mean, it’s like, you know, the fact that you’re just, it’s just really great that you’re doing the work you could do, because there’s different so many different things you could do in your life. And
I think it seems like you’ve seen that there’s just so much work for you to do. I guess you’re just trying to, you know, balance how much and what. And, you know, I guess that’s also you probably are also kind of like an artist where you’re wired because you like to do a little bit of everything,
the speaking and the podcast and some of the consulting. And you just got to do what you got to do, I guess.
Yeah, I don’t know. You know, I came from corporate. I was a vice president of sales for a software company and I did the corporate thing for a lot of years. And, you know, that whole shift in 2020 and the racial injustices and disability wasn’t part of DEI.
And it just like really I’m like very competitive more than anything. And I I. I was doing the work and I knew disability would catch on to this like advocacy, but it wasn’t there yet. And I was like, I, this is mine. Like I want to lead. I don’t want to follow. Like, so I quit a job.
I retired in my forties, you know? And I’m like, Oh, this is going to be okay.
and at least yeah I could imagine i would if i was a sales VP manager or whatever I would love to have you on my team because i imagine you were relentless i mean the best people that are sales or whatever or anything that have just a little bit of a
chip on their shoulder I mean it’s just unstoppable man i could imagine you crushed the numbers and if there weren’t real numbers however you do it you’d be relentless
yeah and like that that is why I’m crushing what I’m doing now because I’ve put into play all my corporate experience from my sales and, you know, leadership. And like, that is the magic. It’s like, I’ve got my platform and I’ve got a great product,
but I also know how to move things through the pipeline and to sell the thing. Yeah.
So, um, Well, what can we do to help you? Not that I, I mean, I have a little, little, you know, dreaming one day to have a bigger platform, but trying to get connected with big people and good people like you and other influencers on this like moment we’re together.
What, what would be something you’d want to beacon out to the universe? Or if someone would hear it to pick up, you know, do a show for you on Showtime. I don’t know. Or docuseries. I don’t know. What would it be?
I’ll take all of the above. Um, You know, if there’s anybody that’s out there that’s listening to this that thinks that it would be great to have a conversation and if there’s any way that I can support you, I would love to meet you. So please reach out to me at Alyciaanderson.com.
And, you know, beyond me, subscribe to my podcast. That’d be great. But beyond that, hire somebody with a disability. Yeah. you know, like push yourself to, Step out of fear and try something new. Give somebody an opportunity that you haven’t prior. Challenge the status quo. Look through a larger lens and see.
My dad told me when I was a little girl, like this path is going to be tough. You got to do the best that you can with what you’ve been given and try to smile because a smile is going to allow other people in to really understand what’s going on. At least try it.
And for me and my platform, I’ve shortened that down to say simply see me for me. And that means on both sides of this argument, like we need one person needs to try. The other person needs to be willing to share. We need to come together. And so I challenge your community to do that, you know,
and yeah, call me if there’s any opportunity to partner. I would love to.
This is awesome. Well, we’re going to put you up on. I really appreciate you coming. You’ve been awesome. I love this conversation. I feel like we got some really good nuggets. And if afterwards, if there’s anything like links, references that I need to share, re-email it to, because what I’ll do is I’ll post it out.
I’ll put it on YouTube. I put it on our sub stack. And then we’ll put the newsletter with some of your links, how the people can find you, and then other articles that you think are important, other stuff through your work. Please share that with me so I can post it.
Will do. Will do. Thanks for having me.
Awesome. Thank you for coming. It’s been awesome.